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ls1z28chris (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
You and I both know the economic reality is that if you want to put a roof over your head, food on the table, have health insurance, and work in a career with any sort of job security, you need the type of job for which at least an undergrad degree is required. It just gets even worse if you start talking about providing for a family as well.Folks do live beyond their means, but simply providing the basics requires indebtedness that takes decades to crawl from under.
ls1z28chris (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
Our system of debt and credit push market prices so high that the option of working and saving is unfeasible. Debt is de facto the only option available.The median individual income of a male HS grad is $29k. For a male w/ a Bachelor's it is $51k. At which level of income, and in what sort of career, would it then be possible to put a roof over your head, food on the table, and have health insurance?
UnhealthySalad (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
Who says most people need a college education? (If I remember correctly, most jobs even in America don't require a college degree). Also, most people can walk or ride a bike to work or school. Those options aren't so bad, it's just that it's more convenient to do otherwise.I would agree, though, that our society has been living beyond their means and are way too addicted to credit. However, it is possible that we could be entering what is called a credit revulsion, which would reverse this.
UnhealthySalad (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
"Many people are ill informed and are completely unaware that other options exist."So?"the other options may be so "bad" as to not be options at all."Subsistence living doesn't seem so bad to me. Neither does being frugal or fiscally responsible."please articulate for me the way in which a contemporary American can get a college education, a good job, a roof over his head, and a means of transportation without drowning in debt."Working, savings.
ls1z28chris (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
Also, please articulate for me the way in which a contemporary American can get a college education, a good job, a roof over his head, and a means of transportation without drowning in debt.As I see it, overwhelming debt is de facto the way of life in America. There are other options, but they are not feasible and therefore cannot be considered options for many people.
ls1z28chris (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
You misunderstand my argument if you think that I am saying that we have not progressed.It is not necessarily a false dichotomy simply because one can opt not to live according to societal norms. Many people are ill informed and are completely unaware that other options exist. Also, the other options may be so "bad" as to not be options at all.
UnhealthySalad (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
False dichotomy. You don't have to live in accordence with "society", which is debt-laden consumptionism, or have to live on the streets. There are other ways.Second, "a hiccup" can occur in any economic system. Either way, goods are scarce. Things don't just pop up because we want them to. So, this is not an argument that can be used to say humans have not progressed. Scarcity will always be with us.
ls1z28chris (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
I understand that the point is highly debatable and to some extent depends on individual subjective interpretation of the terms involved, but I disagree it is only a matter of semantics.You talk about the element of choice being a differentiating factor, but what sort of choice is it to either live withing this system of debilitating debt or live on the street? That is no choice at all. One hiccup in the system, one break in pay, and food/water, a home and cleanliness disappears.
Kataphraktoi17 (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
Ferguson is quoting Clark's A Farewell to Alms. The "human condition" is dependent on intelligence - increase in IQ are heredity, evolutionary process. In Hart's Understanding Human History, he states that the Neolithic revolution, was drivin by IQ. The point is, that the human condition is constantly trapped in Malthusian traps,
UnhealthySalad (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)
Well, if you're speaking about the West, I have to strongly disagree. We're way passed subsistence living, to the point of excess and indulgence. Subsistence living requires only food & water, a safe place to sleep/dwell, and a way to keep clean. The fact that people get into endless debt and such is a lifestyle choice. So to me your argument is simply semantic. Human demand has shifted (as it always will once other demands have been met), but I don't believe we're worse off because of it. |
